Sundays at 9.10am, repeated Tuesdays at
7.10pm
Psychopaths in Suits
Sunday 18 July 2004
Produced by Ian Walker
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Program Transcript
Mock film trailer
Enron Trader 1: Burn, baby burn, thats a
beautiful thing.
Announcer: They ooze charm and charisma, with
more sizzle than a steak...
Enron CEO, Ken Lay: Ive never seen the
company stronger, Ive never seen a better position.
Announcer: Theyll do whatever it takes...
Enron Trader 2: Oh, just tell em a bunch of
lies. Weave a bunch of lies and thats what we did.
Announcer: And take whatever is offered...
Enron Trader 3: Can we
rephrase that?
Enron trader 4: OK, he arbitrages the
California market to the tune of a million bucks or two a day.
Announcer: They thrive on risk, chaos and
upheaval...
Enron trader 5: Well why dont you just go
ahead and shut it down if thats OK.
Enron trader 6: Enron, oh, holy shit, that
thing got smoked.
Announcer: And when things go wrong, they
wont be the ones apologising
Ken Lay: Obviously I wish what happened hadnt
happened, but we cant re-do history now.
Announcer: Corporate psychos, coming soon to a
workplace near you.
Enron trader 6: Oh God, I cant handle it
anymore.
Announcer: Corporate psychos.
Ian Walker: Psychopaths
we usually only know
them from Hollywood movies, as serial killers, rapists or sadists.
If they made a movie about the unravelling saga of the Enron
collapse, no-one would get killed
but the main characters would
still be as chilling and ruthless as any baddie from a B-grade
horror flick.
Psychopaths people our nightmares and literature, but we never
expect them to enter our real life.
But the psychopath is closer than you think.
Most of them function incognito in high-powered professions like
the law, politics, entertainment, the church, the military, trade
unions, the media and the arts.
All the way to the very top.
Professor Robert Hare: They look and dress the
same way as most businessmen, they may even use the same language.
Some of these people are fairly persuasive, they can manipulate,
theyre very charming, some of them even charismatic. And a lot of
people, they like them, they think theyre kind of fun to be around,
but it takes a long time before you can figure out that something is
really amiss here.
Ian Walker: This week, we find out what happens
when the psychopath goes to work
with hair-rising stories of toxic
bosses, irrational CEOs, backstabbling co-workers, serial bullies
and malignant narcissists. No-one gets killed, but theres plenty of
blood on the carpet.
And we ask the question: is economic pressure on modern-day
workplaces and corporate culture itself helping to create a world
where psychopathic behaviour is flourishing and even being
rewarded?
Plus, stay tuned for a few tips from the experts in how to spot a
psychopath in a suit.
Dr Paul Babiak: Insincere, arrogant,
untrustworthy, manipulative, insensitive to the thoughts and
feelings of others, remorseless, shallow, meaning the person seems
not to have feelings, is incapable of experiencing or understanding
the feelings of others. "Insincere, arrogant, untrustworthy,
manipulative, insensitive to the thoughts and feelings of
others
" Tends to blame others
for things that go wrong, has low frustration tolerance and is
therefore impatient with things. Erratic, unreliable, unfocused, and
is selfish, parasitic, they take advantage of the goodwill of people
they work with as
well as the company itself.
Ian Walker: Hi, Im Ian Walker and welcome to
Background Briefing.
If this sounds like someone you know, grab and pen and try this
quick quiz. Answer Yes or No to the following ten questions:
- Does your boss or workmate come across as smooth, polished and
charming?
- Do they turn most conversations around to a discussion about
them?
- Do they discredit or put others down in order to build up
their own image and reputation?
- Can they lie with a straight face to their co-workers,
customers, or business associates?
- Do they consider people theyve outsmarted or manipulated as
dumb or stupid?
- Are they opportunistic, ruthless, hating to lose and playing
to win?
- Do they come across as cold and calculating?
- Do they sometimes act in an unethical or dishonest manner?
- Have they created a power network in the organisation, then
used it for personal gain?
- Do they show no regret for making decisions that negatively
affect the company, shareholders, or employees?
Ian Walker: If you scored at least six out of
ten, theres a good chance youve already met whats known as an
industrial or corporate psychopath.
For most of us, the word itself seems loaded, and a bit shocking
to use for someone who might be in the next cubicle at work. But,
psychopath, were assured, is the correct term for these people.
Some corporate psychopaths will eventually progress to
white-collar crime. Most of them, though, will never get caught or
convicted. But, make no mistake, theyre every bit as egocentric,
callous and manipulative as your average criminal variety.
Psychopaths treat people, including their families, like objects,
and they can do immense amounts of damage to those who cross them,
or frustrate their goals.
They can cost companies millions.
Paul Babiak is a corporate psychopaths worst nightmare: he knows
how they think. Babiaks an industrial/organisational psychologist
from upstate New York and a regular consultant to many A-list
corporations trying to remedy dysfunctional behaviour in the
workplace. More than anyone, hes helped invent the term corporate
psychopath, and has done most of the work in studying how they
operate.
It all started, though, by accident, as part of a consultancy job
12 years ago, and a case that had him baffled.
Dr Babiak had been brought in to help a major corporation in
Colorado. His job was to assess a management team that was
underperforming. A new recruit had joined its ranks. Morale was low,
conflict high.
Initially, Babiak was charmed by the fast-talking guy at the
centre of the problem. But as his investigation progressed, it
turned out hed uncovered a genuine snake in a suit.
Paul Babiak: He came across very sincere, and
modest, and I only came to realise there was something going on when
I got the results of the assessments that were being done, and I
found quite a discrepancy. A number of people really, really liked
him, and that included some of the higher level people I must say.
And a number of people really despised him, really thought he was
evil. One person referred to him as a snake. It was only later
really, after the assignment ended and I consulted with Bob Hare,
that I saw the light. Bob had sent me the PCL-R, or the Psychopathy
Checklist, which he had developed while studying psychopaths in
prison samples.
He came out high on the conning and manipulation side of the
PCL-R equation and middle-of-the-road on the anti-social behaviour
side. Thus he was able to hide his manipulations from view of those
around him, yet he exerted undue influence, negative influence on
the group.
Ian Walker: Babiak dubbed the troublesome
manager Dave, and his story would literally become a textbook
case. But more on Dave in a moment.
ABC AM Theme
US Justice Department Spokesperson: Today we
announce the most significant charges to date in the historic
investigation into the collapse of Enron.
ABC Reporter: All three senior executives of
Enron have now been charged with the collapse that cost investors
billions of dollars, caused the loss of thousands of jobs and left
hundreds of employees without their superannuation.
Ken Lay:
a tragic day for me and my family.
As CEO of the company I accept responsibility for Enrons
collapse, however that does not mean I knew everything that
happened at Enron.
Ian Walker: The story of bosses behaving badly
is an old one thats usually whispered between friends or
colleagues. It only grabs the headlines when the bosses at the very
top, like Enrons Kennyboy Lay, come asunder in spectacular
fashion. But its not a story youll hear much of at business school
or in the popular management or leadership literature of the
day.
As anyone whos been one knows, the daily reality of being a boss
is hard work, thankless even, and it takes a certain type of person
to be good at it.
According to Amanda Sinclair, Professor of Management at the
Melbourne Business School, we live in a time when bosses are under
pressure from all sides. Not surprisingly, many of them are finding
it hard to live up to often unrealistic expectations.
Amanda Sinclair: What were in at the moment is
a very high pressure environment, when a lot of the traditional sort
of structures that contained us and protected us, are being stripped
away. So, a lot of us are involved in virtual interactions and
high-speed interactions and a situation that one theorist has
described as overburdening, which means giving people more tasks
than they can possibly do, but under the mistaken belief that
putting them under that sort of pressure is going to bring out the
best in them. Bosses are routinely asking us to deliver far more
than we can possibly do. So what that means is that we then see
leaders as being overly-demanding, overly-pressured, controlling,
unable to let go, unable to delegate, unable to see the bigger
picture, and so on. Because, of course, theyre in a system too. I
mean theyre reacting to pressures higher up from themselves.
"The Office" - BBC
David Brent (Boss): As you are aware, there are going to be
redundancies, and youve made my life easier inasmuch as Im
asking that you go first.
Dawn (the receptionist): What? Why?
David Brent: Why? Stealing. Thieving.
Dawn: Thieving?
David Brent: Yes.
Dawn: What am I meant to have stolen?
David Brent: Post-It notes.
Female Employee: Post-it notes. What are they worth, about
12p?
David Brent: Oh, Got your Bible on you, Ricky?
Thou shalt not steal, and its only worth 12p. You steal a
thousand Post-it notes at 12p, youve made
.a profit.
Dawn: Why would I steal Post-it notes?
David Brent: You know, to make the little
things on the ends of joints. Roaches.
Dawn: I see. I cant, I cant, Ive never
actually stolen as much as a paper clip, and youre firing me.
David Brent: And the good news is, I dont
have to give you any severance pay because its gross misconduct.
So you can go straight away.
Dawn: (sobs)
David Brent: Oh ... that was a joke
there.
Amanda Sinclair: I think its often a fairly
fine line between a level of reasonably normal neuroses that we all
are afflicted by at various times and under certain sorts of
conditions, and that normally neurotic behaviour, if you like,
slipping over into something more extreme, like a psychotic
behaviour. And I think that there is evidence for that. You do hear
stories about those, you do hear narratives about those, about
people just really becoming quite abnormally punishing and sadistic,
and humiliating and in the interests of corporate objectives. And
thats a situation where the business environment really does
provide, if you like, a stage for those sorts of behaviours to be
acted out under the pressures of post-modern capitalism, if you
like.
Ian Walker: Amanda Sinclair, Professor of
Management at Melbourne Business School.
As old-fashioned business institutions are forced to move with
the times by changing their structure, improving efficiency,
updating technology and overhauling their systems, the climate
becomes perfect for dysfunctional behaviour to flourish.
The now-infamous Enron Tapes provide a good example
those truly
shocking recordings of phone conversations between the ruthless
electricity futures traders from the company. Their skulduggery
helped black out the power grid in California, and cost the State
billions of dollars.
Phone ringing
Bob Badeer: Nothing, fuckin...
Receptionist: Kevin McGowans office?
Bob Badeer: Yes, is Kevin there?
Receptionist: Yes, may I say whos
calling?
Bob Badeer: Yes, Bob Badeer.
Receptionist: One moment.
Bob Badeer: Thanks.
Kevin McGowan: Robert. So the rumours true,
theyre fuckin taking all the money back from you guys? All those
money you guys stole from those poor grandmothers of
California?
Bob Badeer: Yeah, Grandma Millie, man. But
shes the one who couldnt figure out how to fuckin vote on the
butterfly ballot. Now she wants her fuckin money back for the
power youve charged right up, jammed right up her arse for
fuckin $250 a megawatt hour.
(Laughter)
Kevin McGowan: With these power prices and
this fuckin ah gas prices, they cant do it. They cant this is
like a recession waiting to fuckin happen. Were like the new
Carissa. So we all new Carissa! So we all just drink the fuckin
Koolade and stick a fork in us. Were the Roman Empire
Bob Badeer: We are going down,
man.
Ian Walker: One type of person who thrives on
this kind of frontier capitalism is the corporate psychopath. And
theres no shortage of opportunities for the ones who think big.
According to organisational psychologist, Paul Babiak the
fast-moving never-look-backwards uber-corporations like Enron seem
to create executives in their own image.
Paul Babiak: They tend to like people who are
high energy, and also fast-moving, and psychopaths can look that
way. Theyre very impulsive people, they thrive on stimulation, they
have low frustration tolerance. They can do many things at once,
they may not finish any of them, but things are moving so fast
sometimes you dont notice, and so they look like an ideal employee.
So, you have two things going on: on the one hand, they are more
likely to join an organisation because its more attractive, at
least these kinds of organisations. And, secondly, its easier for
them to hide because the kinds of things they say and do seem to be
what the organisations want: someone who has charm and charisma,
someone who can command respect, who is larger than life, and the
psychopath is very prone to fill those shoes. They really do have
charm and charisma. And we can sometimes mistake that for
leadership, especially if we believe their stories
and they are
great storytellers. They can tell a good story and they can be very
entertaining and they can weave a lot of facts which really are
disjointed, but they can bring it together into a powerful story,
almost looking to us like a vision.
Ian Walker: And the vision thing is everywhere
you look.
Management book titles
Inspire: What Great Leaders Do
Self-Reliance, The Wisdom Of Ralph Waldo Emerson As
Inspiration For Daily Living
The Art Of Possibility, Transforming Professional And
Personal Life
When Giants Learn To Dance
99% Inspiration, Tips, Tales And Techniques For
Liberating Your Business Creativity.
First, Break All The Rules: What The Worlds Greatest
Managers Do Differently.
Attitude 101: What Every Leader Needs To
Know.
Nice Girls Dont Get The Corner Office
Jack Welsh and the GE-Way: Management Insights And
Leadership Secrets Of The Legendary CEO
Jesus CEO: Using Ancient Wisdom For Visionary
Leadership.
Ian Walker: If the titles on the shelves of the
business leadership section of your favourite bookshop are anything
to go by, the rise of the CEO as guru shows no sign of abating any
time soon.
Management Professor Amanda Sinclair believes the reason may be
spiritual.
Amanda Sinclair: I think that a certain sort of
vacuum in our secular society has created an opportunity for
business leaders to be suddenly cast as the great heroes and the
great saviours, and the people who will offer us transformative
visions. "A certain sort of vacuum in our secular
society has created an opportunity for business leaders to be
suddenly cast as the great heroes
" The search for meaning is nothing new.
What is more new and more interesting is the way in which we are
increasingly looking to leaders in the business community to be
above the rest of us, to be offerers of great visions, and
charismatic ideals.
Ian Walker: The visionary and inspirational boss
though is something thats pretty scarce when you actually go and
ask people to name a few?
Amanda Sinclair: Indeed it is, but it doesnt
mean that there isnt a vast, vast literature on how to be one. And
therein lies the paradox I think, this hunger that we so rarely see
actually satisfied. I think its really our own sort of appetite for
a particular good story about leadership thats meant that were
often reluctant to look at the darkside and a bit shocked when it
surfaces its head. So that we tend to dismiss bad behaviour as sort
of aberrant, when in fact its part of the stuff of leadership
really.
"Wall Street" - Oliver Stone 1986
Bud Fox: Tell me, Gordon, when does it all
end, huh? How many yachts can you water-ski behind, how much is
enough?
Gordon Gecko: Its not a question of enough,
Pal. Its a zero-sum game. Somebody wins, somebody loses. Money
itself isnt lost or made, its simply transferred from one
perception to another. Like magic. We make the rules, Pal
the
news, war, peace, famine, upheaval, the price of paper clips. We
pick that rabbit out of the hat and everybody sits out there
wondering how the hell we did it.
Amanda Sinclair: I mean the leadership persona
is, by definition, a fairly mercurial one
its one where theres
enormous highs and enormous lows, thats part of the make-up. These
people have views, they have expectations and a confidence in their
own view that it deserves to serve as the view or the vision for
others. So, you need somebody whos pretty driven and unusually
ambitious, has an unusually inflated view of their own importance,
in order to sustain that. And, thats the very thing we want from
them. But, its also the very thing that should send up our
antennae, and that includes things like pride, envy, rivalry
intense
rivalry. And gosh, havent we seen that in the corporate scene! And
yet it doesnt actually get diagnosed as that. It gets discussed as
something different. But, of course, all these people have many
sides. And if we actually had a much more well-rounded understanding
of the fragilities that often lead people to seek leadership in the
first place, then we would be better placed to make more discerning
judgements when those same leaders that weve treated as saviours,
just demonstrate the other side of their personalities.
Ian Walker: Professor Amanda Sinclair, of the
Melbourne Business School.
But what happens when the aberrant behaviour of our leaders
becomes malignant, maybe criminal, perhaps even psychopathic? What
are the signs? And how would we know what to do?
Easily the best person to ask is Canadas Robert Hare. Hes the
worlds pre-eminent expert on psychopathy and a regular advisor to
the FBI. In the 70s, Hare developed whats known as the Psychopathy
Checklist, or PCL, which is used as the international standard by
police and mental health professionals to determine who qualifies as
a psychopath. Hes spent much of his working life inside prisons,
studying hardcore criminal psychopaths, mostly murderers and serial
rapists.
More recently though, hes shifted his focus to the workplace and
has now teamed up with Paul Babiak to help corporations identify the
psychopath at work.
Robert Hare: We estimate, on the basis of some
reasonably decent data, that about 1% of the general population will
meet our criteria for psychopathy. And in the business world, the
prevalence debatably could be somewhat higher, dependent upon the
organisation. The problem for the organisation is that only one or
two of these people can do enormous damage, particularly if they get
very high up in the organisation.
Ian Walker: You said it depends on the
corporation, so tell me what difference the corporate culture makes
to fostering psychopathic behaviour?
Robert Hare: Well I suppose some people would
argue that the very nature of the corporate culture almost compels
psychopathic behaviour. There was this documentary that was just
completed about seven or eight months ago, a Canadian one called The
Corporation, and the premise of the whole thing is that corporations
are, by their nature, psychopathic. Could they be impulsive? Yes.
And could it lack empathy? And Id explain: Well, yes, under
certain circumstances. If you look at the corporation as an entity,
as a person. And that was taken as evidence that the corporation
is, by definition, psychopathic. And I would argue that corporations
of that sort are prime targets for a psychopath, because he or she
will function very well in a corporate culture that is designed to
manipulate, con, lie, steal and cheat. But most corporations arent
like that.
Ian Walker: Robert Hare, Emeritus Professor of
Psychology at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver,
Canada, and author of the best-selling book Without
Conscience.
Paul Babiak has never been inside a prison, but hes been asked
to help out at many dysfunctional corporations.
Until twelve years ago, the idea that psychopathy could be at the
heart of some of his client companys problems had never crossed his
mind. It all changed when he came across the puzzling case of
Dave.
For clues, Dr Babiak sought out Bob Hare and his Psychopathy
Checklist. Dave was a high scorer.
Since that time, Babiak believes hes positively identified up to
eight workplace psychopaths amongst his regular clients.
Now, the pair are writing a book, to be published later this
year, called Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go To Work. They
hope to answers some basic questions, like:
What do you look for if you think you share your workplace with a
psychopath? And what makes them tick?
According to Paul Babiak, there are three main archetypes.
Paul Babiak: One weve labelled The Con, and
thats the individual who deals one-on-one with individuals,
primarily tries to exert influence over them, and then swindles them
out of something. Its a very simple process, and they may not make
it into the high levels of the corporate structure, but they can do
some serious damage.
The second kind of psychopath, is The Bully. And thats a person
that influences others by intimidation. It could be overt, verbal
threats, maybe even physical violence, but it can also be very
covert intimidation.
Ian Walker: But by far the most dangerous of all
the psychopaths in the workplace is a prize manipulator Babiak calls
The Puppetmaster.
Paul Babiak: Thats an individual who is very
savvy, is quite a student of human behaviour, is quite capable of
manipulating individuals into hurting other people. So its a
two-step process. The Puppetmaster manipulates individuals and these
people whom they are manipulating do the dirty work for them.
Therefore commit the crimes; it might be embezzlement, it could be
some other form of fraud. They reap the benefit, but their minions
do the work.
Ian Walker: Generally what are the motivations
behind the psychopathic behaviour? What drives them?
Paul Babiak: I think psychopaths are primarily
driven by a thrill seeking drive. Theyre very impulsive, and they
have a perhaps physiological drive for stimulation.
The second thing that operates in them is a need, a drive if you
will, to play games, to play the game, to play with people as if
theyre pawns
theyre gameplayers. And they like to win, of course.
And, the third aspect of their personality which I think is a
driver, is that they are immune to the damage they do. At some level
they might even enjoy the damage that they do.
Ian Walker: Why this is is still a mystery. One
clue may be in a very small part of the brain known as the amygdala,
crucial for processing emotions.
Bob Hare says theres been some promising recent research done in
Germany, Scandinavia and by his own team in Vancouver, using
Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging, or FMRI.
The results all show up the same kind of blind spot in a
psychopaths thinking.
Bob Hare: There are anomalies in the way the
brain functions while its processing certain types of information.
For example, we wanted to see to what extent psychopaths were able
to understand the emotional components of language, so theyd be
presented with words that were either neutral or emotional. We tried
to see which parts of the brain are activated while they process
each type of word. And for normal people, non-psychopathic
individuals, there are parts of the brain that are highly active,
limbic regions, the emotional brain, part that adds emotional
content to our cognitions, that part of the brain is always
activated considerably. "If youre looking at very, very violent
pictures, most people would respond with a distinct emotional
response...For the psychopaths, that doesnt seem to happen
" But for psychopaths it seems
not to be activated in the same direction, the same way. So, we
would argue that, for the psychopath, an emotional event, a word or
even a picture, is treated as if its something relatively neutral.
If youre looking at say, very, very violent pictures, mutilated
faces for example, most people would respond with a distinct
emotional response, and you could detect that in the cerebral
blood-flow, parts of the brain that are activated. For the
psychopaths, that doesnt seem to happen. Its as if theyre looking
at this rather horrific image and saying Interesting, cool.
Ian Walker: While he wasnt face-to-face with a
knife-wielding murderer Paul Babiack still clearly remembers his
earliest encounter with the psychopath he called Dave. It took him
more than two years, but by piecing together parts of the story from
many different people, Babiak was able to shine some light on
exactly how corporate psychopaths get away with it for so long.
Dave had woven a complex web of manipulation by grooming what
Babiak calls the Pawns and the Patrons.
Paul Babiak: When I sorted through the data I
found that the supporters and the detractors could actually be
broken down into four groups, based upon the amount of first-hand
experience they had with Dave, and the amount of help they could be
to his career. One group, I called them The Patrons, was made up of
the President, the Vice-President and some Directors of the firm,
effectively the higher levels of the organisation. Now, this group
of individuals had considerable formal power in the company but they
actually knew very little about Dave. What limited interactions they
had with Dave were positive but, I learned later, each had been
carefully staged by Dave to get the effect he wanted. As a result,
these executives protected and defended him from subsequent
criticism.
Ian Walker: Daves Patrons in upper management
had him marked out as a potential future leader of the company.
Meanwhile though, Dave was busy making friends with people lower
down the corporate food-chain. They had no power but they helped him
cover up his inadequacies. They were the Pawns, but he made them
feel special.
Paul Babiak: One in particular, I called her The
Soulmate, seemed to glow every time Dave spoke to her. As it turned
out, she, being an expert in the technical area that Dave claimed as
his background and I later discovered he didnt have, she did all of
his work for him, and actually covered for him when he couldnt
complete his assignments. So, in total, this group, despite having
little formal power, actually had considerable informal power and
utility to Dave, and he played them very well.
Ian Walker: The true story of Dave. To be
continued.
Daves story sounds familiar to Sam Vaknin, author of "Malignant
Self Love - Narcissism Revisited", perhaps even a little too close
to home. Vaknins a respected expert on malignant narcissists, but
getting there was an incredible journey. He himself was diagnosed
with Narcissistic Personality Disorder whilst in jail in Israel
after a conviction on fraud-related charges. Hed been an
award-winning writer and a successful businessman, but he lost
everything. And since this disastrous chapter in his life, Sam
Vaknin set about to know everything there is about the psychopathic
narcissist. He can truly say it takes one to know one.
Sam Vaknin: Narcissists are constantly in
denial. They have what is called aloplastic defences. That means
they impute guilt and blame to others. The universe is responsible
for their defeats and failures. Everything is the result of
misfortune. "Narcissists are constantly in denial.They
impute guilt and blame to others
Everything is the result of
misfortune." They never suffer
the consequences of their own actions. They have what is called
magical thinking, they feel immune.
Ian Walker: So how did you get to a point of
self-awareness?
Sam Vaknin: I was crushed by life. I was
imprisoned, I lost all my money and assets - there was quite a lot
of it. My wife left me. By the time I emerged from prison a year
later, I was virtually a non-entity. This was a very sobering
experience, and it forced me to meet myself.
Ian Walker: Tell me, was it narcissism that got
you in that situation in Israel?
Sam Vaknin: I cant attribute my downfall to
narcissism and only to narcissism. There were other things. For
instance, my imprisonment and my propensity to act criminally
indicates diagnosis of anti-social personality disorder, more
well-known as psychopathy. Many narcissists are also psychopaths,
and most psychopaths also have narcissistic traits or a narcissistic
style, or even a narcissistic personality, so the distinctions are
very blurred, and many people think that they are artificial.
Theres very rarely a pure diagnosis of narcissism. Narcissism is
co-morbid with other mental health disorders, mainly with other
personality disorders such as the anti-social, the borderline and,
to a lesser degree, the histrionic personality disorders.
Narcissists are paranoid, many of them are sadists, and so on and so
forth. So, its a panoply, sort of a smorgasbord of mental health
disorders. And Im no exception. I suffer from narcissism, but also
from a host of other mental health problems.
Ian Walker: Perhaps the only good news for a
malignant narcissist is that its quite likely theyll get a
well-paying job in a prestigious profession.
Sam Vaknin says theyre attracted to positions of power and
authority.
Sam Vaknin: Youd find a high concentration of
narcissists among the media professions, Hollywood, the church,
politics and so on and so forth. Show business and politics are
infested with narcissists. There is a professional predilection. So
personality disorders emerge in early childhood. Even as a child
grows up and has to choose a profession, he or she would normally
gravitate towards professions which are rewarding emotionally. And,
if one is a narcissist, one will gravitate towards narcissistic
professions. That is, professions which allow one to yield power or
to exert authority.
Narcissism and narcissistic behaviour is everywhere to be seen. I
mean its within the family, its within corporations, its in
politics, in the administration, its between nations and so on and
so forth. Narcissism can also be collective. We can have a
narcissistic culture, or a narcissistic society or a narcissistic
church, or a narcissistic corporation.
"The Corporation" - Mark Achbar and Jennifer Abbott
2003
Man 1: What is a corporation? It is, under the
law, a legal person.
Noam Chomsky: These are special kind of
persons who have no moral conscience, designed by law to be
concerned only for their stockholders.
Man 2: I just cant be personally
responsible.
Man 1: Maybe youd better incorporate.
Voiceover: Capitalism today commands the
towering heights and has displaced politics and politicians as the
new high priests. And reigning oligarchs of our system.
CEO: OK guys, enough bullshit!
Ian Walker: It may be a chicken-and-egg
question, but what is the link between the corporation and the
corporate psychopath?
In the feature documentary film The Corporation, soon to be seen
in Australian cinemas, a compelling argument is made that much
destructive corporate behaviour can be explained as
psychopathic.
The films careful to make a clear distinction between the
actions of the psychopathic corporation and those who work for
it.
However, Co-director Jennifer Abbott does concede that some of
her interviewees do display some extreme and worrying psychopathic
tendencies.
Jennifer Abbott: I think because the corporation
is legally-mandated to put profit above everything, even the public
good, and of course it is an extraordinarily competitive environment
at the same time, that that frequently manifests in a kind of
behaviour in individuals which we wouldnt see them express to their
families. "The corporation is legally-mandated to put
profit above everything, even the public good." They have a different set of values
within corporate culture, than they do in society at large. One
example there might be Carlton Brown, who we interviewed. He is a
commodities broker, and he expresses extreme delight at the prospect
of Iraq being bombed, because it means gold will go up.
People find this shocking, and it is shocking, but I think it
speaks to the focus on profits, self-interest, and in devastation
there is opportunity he says. He sort of pays lip service to the
tragedy, but you can see its lip service.
Carlton Brown: It was really a bad thing, one of
the worst things Ive seen in my lifetime, you know. But I will tell
you, and every trader will tell who was not in that building, and
who was buying gold, and who owned gold and silver, that when it
happened, the first thing you thought about was Well, how much is
gold up? The first thing that came to mind was, My God, gold must
be exploding. Fortunately for us, all our clients were in gold. So
when it went up, they all doubled their money. Everybody doubled
their money. It was a blessing in disguise
devastating, crushing,
heart-shattering but, in a financial sense, for my clients that were
in the market, they all made money. Now I wasnt looking for this
type of help. But it happened.
In devastation there is opportunity.
Ian Walker: New York commodities trader, Carlton
Brown, from the documentary film The Corporation.
While this kind of corporate cowboy opportunism may seem vaguely
immoral to some, theres always been room for some level of
craziness in the world of creative entrepreneurial enterprise.
Manfred Kets de Vries is a psychoanalyst whos been putting
businesses and their bosses on the couch for more than 30 years.
Hes authored or edited about 20 books on the psychology of leaders,
with titles like The Neurotic Organisation, The Irrational
Executive, and his latest Struggling With The Demon.
Hes seen the darkside of the execs of many of Europes top
companies, including Nokia, BP and Heineken, but still has a healthy
sense of humour.
Professor Kets de Vries says the world can neatly be divided into
three distinct behavioural groups: sociopaths, psychopaths and what
he calls normopaths, or excessively normal people.
And theres little call for them when it comes to creative
business decision-making.
Manfred Kets de Vries: Look at entrepreneurs, I
mean many entrepreneurs have this kind of mood swing attitude, you
know psycho-clinic behaviour, any level of craziness, I mean you
need a lot of craziness to be able to be creative. I make a strong
plea for a certain amount of craziness in the world.
Ian Walker: Do we have an unrealistic
expectation that our CEO class are going to be rational people?
Manfred Kets de Vries: I always make the joke
the moment our senior executive is theyre liars, and its your task
to really keep the lying to the minimum, and really hear what people
are trying to tell you. But many people start to live in their own
world and you lose their touch with reality. And thats the reason
companies go astray.
I remember some time ago I was asked to do some consulting jobs.
I was picked up at the airport in a mid-sized European country and
was driven to a large, enormous building and the chauffeur asked me,
Do you want to take the private elevator? I said, Why not? So I
understand the Chairman has a private elevator and doesnt want to
meet anybody. So I go up the elevator, arrive at the top floor of
this fantastic building and there are two flunkeys waiting for me.
They shuffle me to the office of the great man. By the time he came
into the office I was ready to tell him anything. And I dont even
work for him. People have a tendency, when you are in a position of
power, to project their fantasies on you. Its called transference,
and its very dangerous, particularly when you have large
corporations.
Ian Walker: Manfred Kets de Vries, Chair of
Leadership Development at Insead, one of the worlds top business
schools, based outside Paris.
Amanda Sinclair agrees that we seem to live in an age where we
provide much fuel, or whats known as narcissistic supply for the
celebrity CEO.
The Melbourne Business School Professor says we need to be
careful how much we encourage this fiction, as the classic
rise-and-fall-of-the-hero story usually has an unhappy ending.
Amanda Sinclair: The factors that tend to
encourage that kind of grandiose overblown behaviour, are vastly
inflated incentive systems, incentive systems that reward bombastic,
short-term deliverables; the way in which we also turn business
leaders into celebrities and expect sort of celebrity
performances.
Ian Walker: But we love these people, or were
infatuated with them at least, because theyre so full of
themselves.
Amanda Sinclair: Indeed, we often project onto
leader figures a better self, you know, the self that we might want
to be, "We often project onto leader figures a better
self, the self that we might want to be." but we create leaders in order to
destroy them, so its a pretty fragile kind of thing. We think for a
short period of time that theyre going to solve everything for us,
theyre going to turn around organisations, theyre going to deliver
miracles. But our patience is often not all that long-term, and then
we get an equal sort of gratification about seeing the fall from
grace.
Ian Walker: In Paul Babiaks intriguing case
study - the story of workplace psychopath Dave - Frank, Daves
boss, is the good guy. After an initial honeymoon period in the
job, Daves list of misdemeanours grew and Frank became increasingly
frustrated by his inability to discipline him, or to catch him
out.
Paul Babiak: Later it was discovered that he was
taking company products for his own use, selling some of it on the
side. He didnt have a degree in the area of expertise he claimed,
and the work experience on his resume was, lets say, enhanced, to
fit the job requirements. But The Pawns supported him, by making
excuses for him, covering him, and basically helping him get through
all this.
The third group, called the Organisational Police, included the
Human Resources folks, the campus security, accounting and auditing
staff, functions like that. What surprised me was that they were
basically ignored by Dave. Because they had no utility, to him, he
was not interested in dealing with them. And, when one or two of
them uncovered some of his behaviour and brought it to the attention
of upper management, they were just pushed aside. He had
successfully neutralised their power, and he sought protection of
the higher-ups, his Patrons, who allowed him to continue this
behaviour.
Ian Walker: Daves boss Frank, was desperate to
prove to his boss, the company Vice-President, that Dave was indeed
a liar.
So, Frank set a trap.
He deliberately let Dave in on a company secret, making him swear
he wouldnt tell a soul. Then, he waited.
Paul Babiak: It wasnt an hour before Dave went
to the Vice-President who was in his office and telling him this
information. But the way he told the story was twisted. He turned it
around to make Frank look like he was betraying the company, and
that Dave was actually loyal and was going to the Vice-President
with this information because he wanted to protect the
Vice-President and the organisation from Franks deceitful
behaviour.
Ian Walker: At this point, Frank thought his
troubles with Dave were over. With the Vice-President now convinced
of Daves deceptions, there was little doubt hed soon be sacked.
But, unfortunately for Frank, the plan backfired. Dave was always
one step ahead.
Paul Babiak: Frank and the Vice-President got
together, and decided to go to the CEO, got an appointment with the
CEO for the following week. When they were in the waiting room,
waiting to have their meeting, because they were going to suggest
that Dave be removed, the door opens, and who walks out but Dave.
And he smiled and walked out.
These two gentlemen then went in to meet with the CEO and you can
imagine how shocked they were. They presented their case to the CEO,
who looked at them, and basically told them he didnt believe
anything that they had said, that he had heard what Dave had said,
believed Dave, and felt they should leave him alone.
Ian Walker: Two weeks later, Frank was moved
into Special Projects. Dave was promoted.
But what can employers do to stop the Daves of the world? Is
there a way to make the corporation psychopath-proof?
Paul Babiak and Robert Hare believe they have part of the answer:
an 111-point questionnaire they call the Business Scan or
B-Scan.
Its filled out by others above and below the problem employee
to pinpoint personality traits and behaviours which may be
destructive.
The two psychologists hope itll prevent businesses from
promoting psychopaths through their ranks, or hiring them in the
first place.
(The quiz at the beginning of our show was based on some of the
B-Scans core items.)
But while theres some good news for prevention, the prognosis
for treating psychopaths is not so bright. As has been shown with
many prison rehabilitation programs, some treatments may actually
make them worse, or at least better-functioning psychopaths.
Robert Hare: Programs that are emotion-based,
that appeal to ones sense of right and wrong, or depend upon the
presence of a conscience or the ability to understand emotionally
what other people are going through, these are not programs for
psychopaths, they would work for the average offender. But for
psychopaths, it certainly is a waste of time. So what we need is
other programs that are designed to take in their nature.
Ian Walker: So, primarily you have to pander to
self-interest, and perhaps use flattery?
Robert Hare: Exactly right. You put your finger
right on it. Enlightened self-interest is not a bad idea for
psychopaths, and try to indicate or convince them that there are
ways in which they can get what they want and need without having to
actually harm other people. "Enlightened self-interest is not a
bad idea for psychopaths
" Now
its easier said than done, because their behavioural patterns are
fairly entrenched. But these are not stupid people, I mean the range
of intelligence amongst psychopathic populations is the same as it
is in the general population. These are people who know whats going
on. So Im hopeful that we can develop some sort of programs that
would be useful for psychopathic personalities.
Ian Walker: If Paul Babiaks Dave story had a
happy ending for the rest of us, it would of course be that Dave has
his comeuppance, is found out and goes to jail for fraud or
embezzlement.
The unfortunate truth is that hes survived two more company
mergers, successfully sacked all his previous enemies, had numerous
pay rises, and just keeps on getting promoted.
Dave is a modern business success story
a hero of our times!
Background Briefings Co-ordinating Producer is Linda
McGinnis
Research Ross Duncan
Webmaster is Paul Bolger
Technical
Producer John Jacobs
Executive Psychopath Kirsten Garrett. Im Ian
Walker.
Youre listening to ABC Radio National.
Further information
Robert Hare's website devoted to the study of
Psychopathy
http://www.hare.org/
Sam Vaknin website on Malignant Narcissism
http://samvak.tripod.com/
Enron tapes
http://www.enrontapes.com
Open Democracy article about Psycho CEOs
http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-7-29-260.jsp#
Resources for victims of bullying
http://www.bullyonline.org
Website for the movie The Corporation
http://www.thecorporation.com/
i-Corp - The Corporation Interactive
http://www.thecorporation.tv/icorp/
